Nice guy

Do girls really mean it, when they say they want a nice guy?

A nice guy is a term usually used ironically to refer to a male who is overly meek, unconfident, square, or approval seeking. He will always see to the needs of others before himself, even if his own needs ultimately go unmet. Often relating to terms such as white knight, beta male, beta provider, etc. Women often refer to guys as "nice" or "sweet" if they aren't attracted to them (as a more polite way of saying "wimp" or "pussy"). Interestingly the etymology of the word "nice" traces back to a term essentially meaning "pedantic" or "foolish" rather than a compliment as it is often used today.

Traits

A typical nice guy won't mind waiting a long time to move a relationship or other interaction with a girl forward (to the point of hesitating^[kw] beyond the escalation window^[kw]); expects points for being nice (even though niceness is common); gets upset when the world doesn't play fair; believes that being good will attract women without the need for him to advertise himself; consumes a lot of media; thinks women are victims of men; is extra soft, friendly, and gentle with women; doesn't have any interests or passions that involve triumphing over other men; cannot understand why women want bad boys; thinks women don't really like sex; believes he must promise a relationship in order to get sex; and cannot believe any girl would want him just for sex.

Troy Francis notes:

"I'm not saying that women don't value these traits, or that they don't end up with men who possess them. What I am saying is that they don't find them inherently attractive."

Commitment sluttiness

bsutansalt notes:

Quote:

«"Nice guys give to get." Guys who do that are what I call "commitment sluts" in that they give away freely the commitment benefits men have to offer without first being in a proper relationship. To borrow from a related thread, relationships are, broadly speaking, a trade. The man provides emotional intimacy, the woman provides physical intimacy. A slut is not respected because she provides physical intimacy without requiring emotional intimacy in return. She has sold herself cheap and in doing so devalues women's primary asset: their sexuality/fertility (this is why most slut shaming is done by women). A "nice-guy" provides emotional intimacy and/or other benefits to a woman without requiring physical intimacy in return. He has sold himself cheap, and likewise is not respected. That's why we say women are the gatekeepers to sex and men the gatekeepers to commitment. Sluts sell sex cheaply and low value men will give commitment at the drop of a hat, and neither are very respected by the other gender. If you ever find yourself in this position with a woman you're attracted to, odds are you've landed in the friendzone and are the woman's orbiter[kw]. Time to put some distance between you two and stop doing her any favors.»

Unattractiveness to Women

In attempting to game^[kw] women nice guys typically try to convince women what a gentleman they are and how unlike all of those "brutish men" they are.

In practice however this version of game is usually less effective at attracting women due to alpha qualities like strength, courage, and dominance playing a stronger role in generating attraction; this is due to the fact that in hunter gatherer societies where humans originated, the men who were the strongest and the most courageous were also generally the best providers; and while the playing field has become more level today due to modern civilization, allowing the mild mannered accountant or computer programmer to potentially earn more income than the MMA fighter or amateur bodybuilder, or even the inner city gang leader, human biology has not adapted with the changing environment.

While some "nice" traits in men are useful in long term relationships, they tend to be less linked to purely physical attraction than the "strong" traits, and if overdone in absence of alpha traits often backfire and make a man seem weak, needy, and dependent on a woman's approval, thereby killing attraction.

In reality however the "age old question" of why "good girls" fall for "bad boys" could be easily answered simply by a layman's understanding of human biology as well as a little common sense. As the question isn't really much harder to answer than why the 250 lb female Marine corps drill instructor who moonlights as an bear wrestler gets less attention from men than the slim 20 year old college girl despite the former thinking men should be impressed with how much she can bench press.

Some theories on why women can't stand nice guys are that nice guys' personalities don't seem genuine, while bad boys "keep it real"; women can't respect (and therefore can't be attracted to) men who let a woman control them, rather than setting boundaries or making any real demands; nice guys are too predictable, aren't exciting, and are never a challenge; nice guys don't need to be saved by a woman's nurturing love; nice guys don't have a need to "to be fixed" that distracts the woman from what needs to be fixed in her own life; nice guys will eventually want a commitment^[kw], which is scary to a woman who is afraid of intimacy; nice guys make women who think poorly of themselves uncomfortable by treating them better than those women treat themselves; women think nice guys might not be willing to manhandle them in bed, take control, and give them mind-blowing sex; nice guys don't always know what to say and are sometimes at a loss for words; and nice guys often aren't as strong physically.

Origins

Conventional society greatly overemphasizes the importance of the "nice" traits while ignoring or in many cases demonizing the "strong" traits, leading to many young men, especially those raised by single mothers or absent a strong male role model to develop a warped, outmoded, Victorian era view of the relationship and dating scene.

This often leads to various dysfunctions; with many males growing up to become beta providers or cucklolds controlled by domineering wives, as well as many males developing resentment towards women or other men when they see "bad boys" getting more attention from women despite viewing themselves as the "statistically" better choice.

According to Derek Baroni:

"Nice Guys are actually cultivated by society on purpose. The reasoning behind this is that a woman must never suffer the consequences of her actions. Hence, there will always be a fresh batch of Nice Guys to cushion her fall and provide her with free meals, free housing, and a sperm donation. There is nothing wrong with Nice Guys as long as you are not one of them."

Charles Wickelus notes:

"The backlash against the Vietnam War had created a class of males who based their masculinity an non-assertiveness, empathy, and avoiding conflict. Finally, the female-dominated educational system - coupled with single motherhood - created men that only understood women as authority figures. Instead of being people whom men could expect love and kindness, women became tyrants who had to be pleased at all costs."

Recovery

Emmanuel Goldstein notes that anger is an early-stage reaction to the social consequences of being a nice guy in which some budding players will tend to get "stuck":

"Now, it's fine to take issue with how the world is proceeding, especially with how women are behaving. But when a man is consistently angry that women fuck 'bad boys' while ignoring 'nice guys,' he is announcing that he's still a bitch."

"The only way out is through," in this case, through bargaining, despair, and finally acceptance.

12 Reasons

1. Not real:

   Nice guys are too nice. No one can always be that nice unless they're a saint. They are busy being nice instead of being real and women instinctually don't trust that. Bad boys "keep it real". Nice guys don't want to upset the apple cart.

2. Respect:

   No one respects a doormat. Nice guys don't set boundaries or make any real demands. A bad boy doesn't let a woman walk all over him or control him. Women can't respect a man they can control. No respect = No attraction.

3. Predictable:

   Most people lead boring, predictable lives, so they're attracted to people who are exciting and a bit unpredictable. Bad boys are always a challenge. Nice guys are never a challenge. Predictable + No excitement + No challenge = I prefer a bad boy.

4. Mother Nature:

   Women are designed to nurture. However, instead of doing this with children, they often end up doing it with bad boys. They think their love will save them. Nice guys rarely need to be saved.

5. Fixer-Upper:

   Nice guys don't usually need to be fixed. Bad boys usually do, so they become a project. Women think if they can "create" the perfect man, he will never leave them. Also, if they're busy fixing someone else, they don't have to look at what needs to be fixed in their own lives.

6. Sperm wars:

   Women are designed to procreate with the strongest possible genes. Bad boys are sending an unconscious message that they have great genes, so they're not afraid of losing the woman by misbehaving. Nice guys are sending a message that they don't think their genes are good enough, so they won't misbehave.

7. Fear of intimacy:

   If a woman is afraid of intimacy, she subconsciously knows she can avoid it with a bad boy, since she can never get close enough to him to have to go there. A nice guy will eventually want a commitment^[kw], and that's scary.

8. Low self-esteem:

   We don't feel comfortable with people who treat us better than we treat ourselves. If you don't think much of yourself, the bad boy is simply reinforcing your negative belief. A nice guy is treating you in a way you're not familiar with.

9. Sex:

   Women feel a nice guy won't be good in bed. They sometimes like to be manhandled and think a nice guy won't be able to take control and get the job done. A bad boy comes across as being able to deliver, even though that may not always be the case.

10. Hot:

    Have you ever seen a bad boy who wasn't hot? I'm sure there are a few, but they wouldn't be able to get away with half the stuff they did if they didn't look so good. Meanwhile, when a woman describes someone as a nice guy, she means, “He's not hot”.

11. Charm:

    Nice guys don't always know what to say, and are sometimes at a loss for words. Bad boys can be very charming and know exactly what women want to hear. However, they eventually switch over to being selfish. By the time they reveal their true colors, the woman has fallen for them and has a hard time letting go.

12. Protection:

    Historically, men have protected women - physically and otherwise. Bad boys give the illusion of being able to protect women, while with nice guys, women aren't so sure. Life is about balance. Most men fall into either the bad boy or the nice guy category. The ideal man is neither, but walks that fine line between the two. Until men learn how to do this, more often than not, women will choose the bad boy, until they realize that his bad qualities outweigh his good ones.

Nice Guy Syndrome

The nice guy has become convinced through experience that he is unworthy of love unless he constantly demonstrates qualities that are socially approved:

In a nutshell, Nice Guys believe that if they are good, giving, and caring, they will in return be happy, loved, and fulfilled... Nice Guys have believed a myth.

Furthermore, the nice guy believes that society will reward him for his niceness:

The working paradigm of the Nice Guy is this: "If I can hide my flaws and become what I think others want me to be then I will be loved, get my needs met, and have a problem-free life." Even when this paradigm is ineffective, Nice Guys only see one alternative: try harder.

Nice guys believe themselves to be honest, but are fundamentally dishonest in withholding their needs from others.

See also

• Friendzone
• Bad boy

External links

• Kings Wiki has an article about No More Mr. Nice Guy
• The Incel Wiki has an article about Nice guy
• wikiHow: Be the Nice Guy and Still Get the Girl
• MGTOW - The Seven Stages of the Nice Guy Complex, Sunrise Hoodie on January 30, 2018
• Bad boy/nice guy epidemic, mgtow.com on September 9, 2017
• Message to Nice Guys, mgtow.com on October 21, 2016
• Red Pill 101 Ep. 2 - Incels & Nice Guys - Rollo Tomassi (November 4, 2018) (Size: 66:00 min.) (Incel)
• The Dangers of Being a Nice Guy - MGTOW - Howard Dare (July 1, 2016) (Size: 11:41 min.)
• No More Mr Nice Guy - MGTOW - Sandman (January 28, 2016) (Size: 10:28 min.)
• Why Women Hate Nice Guys - MGTOW - Howard Dare (June 16, 2016) (Size: 12:55 min.)
• Women Hate Good Guys MGTOW - JDBTv (May 17, 2015) (Size: 7:41 min.)
• Nice Guys - MGTOW - Sandman (November 6, 2014) (Size: 10:06 min.)
• Look out! It's a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!!11! - Karen Straughan (November 29, 2012) (Size: 28:59 min.)
• 12 Reasons Women Can't Stand Nice Guys! - SkyJohn (video is private)
  • Re: 12 Reasons Women Can't Stand Nice Guys! - DEMCAD2 (April 19, 2011) (Size: 9:09 min.) (My response to SkyJohn's video about a cougar's article entitled "12 Reasons Women Can't Stand Nice Guys." I also compare her views to Tom Leykis' advice for men who want to get laid.)